Desperately Seeking Neo

Locked
DSN
Posts: 18
Joined: 25 Jun 2011, 14:07

Desperately Seeking Neo

Post by DSN »

I've just finished my tweaking to the A320 to reflect how the Neo supposedly will behave, but unfortunately that doesn't make it look like the Neo. Is it possible to have a little tweak to the wingtips/engines, just visually? And if the company won't do it, is it legal to ask for somebody else to?

I really want a Neo!

Also I'd be happy to share tweaks if a model is avail to use them with.

Thanks
Alex

Quantum.Byte
Posts: 17
Joined: 15 Apr 2010, 01:52

Re: Desperately Seeking Neo

Post by Quantum.Byte »

aw comeone.. the airplane itself not in-market yet.. why rushing? just patience.

DSN
Posts: 18
Joined: 25 Jun 2011, 14:07

Re: Desperately Seeking Neo

Post by DSN »

The 747-8 in passenger config isn't out yet, but PMDG sure got a good response to their model-only update.

Derek Mayer
Posts: 236
Joined: 02 Jul 2009, 16:13

Re: Desperately Seeking Neo

Post by Derek Mayer »

They also work with Boeing and are provided with a lot of internal, technical data not publicly available.

DSN
Posts: 18
Joined: 25 Jun 2011, 14:07

Re: Desperately Seeking Neo

Post by DSN »

Which I wouldn't think to be necessary to have, as I'm talking about a simple visual model change. Neither my request nor PMDGs update involved changes to aircraft performance. I, however, made some basic changes to the cfg to make things a little more realistic.

esg
Posts: 1591
Joined: 01 Jul 2009, 22:03

Re: Desperately Seeking Neo

Post by esg »

DSN wrote:Which I wouldn't think to be necessary to have, as I'm talking about a simple visual model change. Neither my request nor PMDGs update involved changes to aircraft performance. I, however, made some basic changes to the cfg to make things a little more realistic.
What exactly are we to base the 'simple visual model change' on?

DSN
Posts: 18
Joined: 25 Jun 2011, 14:07

Re: Desperately Seeking Neo

Post by DSN »

There are hundreds of mockups and pictures available. The sharklets are the simplest thing I would imagine. They're already flying on test aircraft, so real pictures and dimensions are available. It's just a winglet. Engines are a little harder, but there are plenty of pictures, proposed dimensions, etc. Besides, it's all for fun. I'm not looking for PMDG accuracy for something that doesn't exist yet.

esg
Posts: 1591
Joined: 01 Jul 2009, 22:03

Re: Desperately Seeking Neo

Post by esg »

DSN wrote:There are hundreds of mockups and pictures available.
http://www.pairbus.com/discussion/viewt ... 577#p13577
DSN wrote:They're already flying on test aircraft
No, they're not.
DSN wrote:PMDG accuracy
You must be jesting, surely?


Accuracy may not be an issue for you, but it is for us.

DSN
Posts: 18
Joined: 25 Jun 2011, 14:07

Re: Desperately Seeking Neo

Post by DSN »

Honestly we could debate this all day, but the fact of the matter is that this is an integratable feature that your users would enjoy. And while I respect your dedication, the customer opinion always comes first, and many a good business has failed from not listening to customers. Reading all of your threads about the issue, I've noticed that it's only the developers who don't want to see the feature. Hmm...

I'd settle for just the sharklets really. The new engines don't look much different.

In your other thread you said you can't design the Neo without Airbus CAD mockups, but you also say you don't have the level of communication that PMDG has with its respective developer. Then how, may I ask, did you design the aircraft to begin with? Few companies have official diagrams, and most developers just use pictures and dimensions, and that doesn't stop people from designing some amazing aircraft.

Edit: I should also add that the sharklets are 2.4m tall, and as I've said before, I'm sure many of your "customers" would be happy to see just those.

I understand if this was a systems or flight performance issue, but it's not. It's a basic 3d model mod, which can be done based off of many hundred available resources. If you're interested, I have more links that might be useful.

esg
Posts: 1591
Joined: 01 Jul 2009, 22:03

Re: Desperately Seeking Neo

Post by esg »

DSN wrote:Oh but they are.
Not currently, no.
These are _not_ the sharklets Airbus went with.
DSN wrote:I can show you hundreds more, but it'd be easier for you to just do a search and see for yourself.
I did, and I've no idea what the KAA sharklets look like.
DSN wrote:Honestly we could debate this all day, but the fact of the matter is that this is an integratable feature that your users would enjoy.
'Our' users could also do with being content with what they already have.
DSN wrote:I'd settle for just the sharklets really.
You'd _settle_? lol
In your other thread you said you can't design the Neo without Airbus CAD mockups
I said that (half-joking) 'cause we've no idea what the KAA sharklets look like.
DSN wrote:If you're interested, I have more links that might be useful.
Bottom line is, we don't do things half-arsed. If you can indeed provide us with something tactile, we might reconsider.

DSN
Posts: 18
Joined: 25 Jun 2011, 14:07

Re: Desperately Seeking Neo

Post by DSN »

In fact I'm in Paris right now, having gone to the tradeshow during the week. I'm having dinner tonight with a few friends from the show, one who works at EADS. I'll see what I can get as far as dimensions, though he may think I'm a Boeing spy. As I edited in, some dimensions are already available, but let's see if we can get a few more.

When I say I'd settle for sharklets alone, I say that because not all A320s with sharklets will be neos, they'll still be regular ones with the sharklets available.

I should also add that the engine and sharklet designs are already frozen now, so the official Airbus mockups, which I feel can overall give a good feel for the components, are accurate. The engine dimensions are already available, and you'd have to base the design off of some renderings, many official by CFM though.

DSN
Posts: 18
Joined: 25 Jun 2011, 14:07

Re: Desperately Seeking Neo

Post by DSN »

Posting from my iPhone right now, my friend at Airbus said this may help.

http://www.airbus.com/fileadmin/media_g ... _Apr11.pdf

Page through it, great winglet dimensions.

MUSTANG
Posts: 46
Joined: 02 Jul 2010, 03:28

Re: Desperately Seeking Neo

Post by MUSTANG »

lol....nice. Guess the ball is in pa's court (but always is anyways :p )

AirNewZealand_A320
Posts: 235
Joined: 27 Jan 2010, 11:22

Re: Desperately Seeking Neo

Post by AirNewZealand_A320 »

Theres still no official word on the dimensions of:
-A: The Sharklets.
-B:The Engines ( Being much larger.)
-C: whether or not there would be change in landing gear design due to large engines.

DSN
Posts: 18
Joined: 25 Jun 2011, 14:07

Re: Desperately Seeking Neo

Post by DSN »

They do have dimensions, just look at the manual I linked to. I confirmed with a friend, who actually worked on the manual, that these are the dimensions for the currently frozen plans for the sharklets. Unless there is a major breakthrough in winglet technology, they won't change.

I'm no developer, but I, and others, feel that there are more than enough dimensions available to create realistic winglets.

Engine dimensions are available, just spread out across several sources. The changes are minor, as they are simply larger versions, and follow the same angles, contours, etc.

Landing gear changes would be to materials, and not appearance of the structure.

Proposed weights are also available for all modifications, though these are subject to change (and then be easily modified in the .cfg). If PA was to continue with the external model design, I would be happy to provide the .cfg modifications to reflect the performance benchmarks of the A320neo as it is today, and most likely will be when released. Again, things like fuel burn are the easiest to tweak.

I have done my research, and now it's time for the naysayers to do theirs.

AND as I've said, not every sharklet holding aircraft will be a Neo. There will be standard IAE and CFM engines sold, and Airbus will offer these with sharklets. Given that, and how much info we have on sharklets, it would be possible to integrate them without compromising the quality PA strives for.

esg
Posts: 1591
Joined: 01 Jul 2009, 22:03

Re: Desperately Seeking Neo

Post by esg »

I've flipped through the Aircraft Characteristics and couldn't find the dimensions for the sharklets anywhere; mind giving me the page number?

You keep talking about how 'there are more than enough dimensions available,' but you've so far given me naught.

DSN
Posts: 18
Joined: 25 Jun 2011, 14:07

Re: Desperately Seeking Neo

Post by DSN »

Start at page 70.

The height of the sharklets is 2.4m, they weigh 100kilos each. The wingspan with the sharklets is 35.48 meters, vs 34.10m on the -200 and 33.91 on the -100. I'm just checking on my phone now, but there are more dimensions, I'll find them later.

As far as giving you dimensions, didn't you say in the other sharklet threads that you do your own research?

esg
Posts: 1591
Joined: 01 Jul 2009, 22:03

Re: Desperately Seeking Neo

Post by esg »

I can see the wingspan, but there's no mention of the dimensions of the sharklets.
The height of the sharklets is 2.4m, they weigh 100kilos each.
Source, please?
As far as giving you dimensions, didn't you say in the other sharklet threads that you do your own research?
I'm not the one making the claims here.

DSN
Posts: 18
Joined: 25 Jun 2011, 14:07

Re: Desperately Seeking Neo

Post by DSN »

This dimension was given by Airbus, originally in 2009. This wasn't a reflection of a test model already designed, but rather their aim. Even if the manufacturer changes, their aims would still be in place. You can also see this dimension reflected if you out a ruler up to the scale picture given in the linked document. Airbus still aims to deliver the standardized 2.4 meter sharklet.

I can't confirm that weight won't be affected by the change of manufacturers.

esg
Posts: 1591
Joined: 01 Jul 2009, 22:03

Re: Desperately Seeking Neo

Post by esg »

So all we've to go by is a spurious claim for its height. Brilliant.

DSN
Posts: 18
Joined: 25 Jun 2011, 14:07

Re: Desperately Seeking Neo

Post by DSN »

It's more than you had before. Wingspan, incase you didn't notice, is also pretty important. And that's not to say more dimensions aren't still out there. This is slow progress, but it's better thanmjust shooting something down because the exact milimetric dimensions aren't handed to you by the real designers.

How on earth did you design your other airbuses, may I ask? I can't find all the exact dimensions for the A380 that you supposedly need online, and if you are in contact with Airbus, why not just ask them about this too?

Besides, there are official airbus renderings out there, and many developers have designed on pictures and a few measurements and made some fantastic airplanes.

If official airbus statements that are accepted by the airlines aren't good enough for you, then I guess the airlines must have low standards.

Edit: based on Boeing research, which has been subsequently applied to nearly all other aircraft winglets, the toe out angle of the sharklets will be 2.0 degrees. Thus can again be confirmed when put up against mockup drawings and scale drawings. One more dimension down, eh?

GaryG
Posts: 888
Joined: 19 Jul 2009, 10:32

Re: Desperately Seeking Neo

Post by GaryG »

Incredible how this thread hasn't been locked yet......

DSN
Posts: 18
Joined: 25 Jun 2011, 14:07

Re: Desperately Seeking Neo

Post by DSN »

I have provided accurate and official information, complete with sources, about a feature requested by a large number of "customers". Any company that shoots down this kind of information clearly should stick to modeling and leave the PR to the big guys.

lbonomo
Posts: 87
Joined: 29 Apr 2010, 01:58

Re: Desperately Seeking Neo

Post by lbonomo »

Incredible how some people are never happy.

DSN
Posts: 18
Joined: 25 Jun 2011, 14:07

Re: Desperately Seeking Neo

Post by DSN »

In case you haven't noticed, companies tend to cater to what people want. If the company doesn't make something that people want, people ask for it. This group seems to not understand basic economic principles...

I'm very happy, thank you very much, but not with PA. I asked about something which WOULD set their A320 apart from other competition, but if they're not interested, they have nothing to offer me that I can't find somewhere else.

GaryG
Posts: 888
Joined: 19 Jul 2009, 10:32

Re: Desperately Seeking Neo

Post by GaryG »

DSN wrote:In case you haven't noticed, companies tend to cater to what people want. If the company doesn't make something that people want, people ask for it. This group seems to not understand basic economic principles...

I'm very happy, thank you very much, but not with PA. I asked about something which WOULD set their A320 apart from other competition, but if they're not interested, they have nothing to offer me that I can't find somewhere else.
Economic, customer, competition, find somewhere else...

You're treating us as if we were payware, which is utterly wrong...utterly wrong. You're threating no one here by saying that you can find somewhere else, which in all honesty, I hope you do.

This is getting somewhat annoying and stupid. Please stop this as soon as possible.

DSN
Posts: 18
Joined: 25 Jun 2011, 14:07

Re: Desperately Seeking Neo

Post by DSN »

Hang on just a second, which are you trying to be here? I'm treating you like payware because your developers keep talking about their level of accuracy, even going so far as to mock the idea of producing something below PMDG quality.

Besides, the economics of a company applies even if the money aspect isn't there. While you claim not to care about download numbers, what else is this group here for besides providing people with an Airbus download?

And I'm not threatening to leave and find somebody else. Honestly, the last time I flew the v1.whatever was years ago. All I'm saying is that money or no money, your group needs to learn how to properly approach the business side of a development group. What are your companies aims? If you are producing a freeware product, don't be snide when people ask for freeware quality. If you are producing payware quality, don't be surprised if people hold you to a different level of customer relations.

I asked if it was possible to have a Neo. The answer was "we don't have enough info". I gave some info. The answer was "are you stupid? That isn't correct". I spoke again to a company official at Airbus, gathered three accurate measurements, with the potential for more, and the answer was a sarcastic "what are we supposed to do with that?".

Does anybody else see something wrong with the company's reaction here? I would gladly have taken a "sorry, but we aren't in a position to model that" rather than the abuse, sarcasm, and hypocrisy that I, and the numerous others who asked about a Neo, received.

MUSTANG
Posts: 46
Joined: 02 Jul 2010, 03:28

Re: Desperately Seeking Neo

Post by MUSTANG »

I shouldnt really poke my head into this but.....I will say HOW u post DSN is a bit aggressive and maybe not the best way to approach the request. Without a doubt u seem like a intelligent person who HAS done their homework on the Neo, which is impressive ;)

But, in the end , the staffers here at PA are doing ALL this work for the love of FS and their passion of airplanes :idea: So its their choice what they choose to tackle as projects....and when ;) I do agree that maybe there was some aggressive posting by both parties :mrgreen:

esg
Posts: 1591
Joined: 01 Jul 2009, 22:03

Re: Desperately Seeking Neo

Post by esg »

I don't know if I should be laughing or crying

Quantum.Byte
Posts: 17
Joined: 15 Apr 2010, 01:52

Re: Desperately Seeking Neo

Post by Quantum.Byte »

Info? what info? what about wingflex? shape? you just give a bunch of number. like esg side, PA need cad drawing. not a bunch of number. if PA can't get it, they will use HQ picture from lot of angle for NEO. and you now what? the neo itself not in-market yet. i know lot of picture of neo. buat like esg side once more, do you hope PA working with LQ picture from poor angle? what make NEO is NEO? you can't see it at picture. you need see it in action.

@esg
just smiling :)

DSN
Posts: 18
Joined: 25 Jun 2011, 14:07

Re: Desperately Seeking Neo

Post by DSN »

esg wrote:I don't know if I should be laughing or crying
Why not laugh until you cry? :D

Once we got past the first few posts, I wasn't looking for a Neo anymore. I agree, that's far too hard to design. However I felt that there was enough info on sharklets to look into that. PA disagrees, so now that that's clear, there's no problem. It's their Airbus, and ultimately things are their call.

But don't get too comfortable. Come 2012, I'll be back with full schematics and half of the real Airbus team :twisted:

esg
Posts: 1591
Joined: 01 Jul 2009, 22:03

Re: Desperately Seeking Neo

Post by esg »

Woot! can't wait. lol

Aim9x
Posts: 2
Joined: 28 Jun 2011, 23:14

Re: Desperately Seeking Neo

Post by Aim9x »

Image

From Free Sky Project users gallery (Posky). I dont know if it's a custom A320 model or a photo montage or anything else...

http://www.freeskyproject.com/gallery/i ... -winglets/

Derek Mayer
Posts: 236
Joined: 02 Jul 2009, 16:13

Re: Desperately Seeking Neo

Post by Derek Mayer »

It's a photoshop edit apparently.

AirNewZealand_A320
Posts: 235
Joined: 27 Jan 2010, 11:22

Re: Desperately Seeking Neo

Post by AirNewZealand_A320 »

Yup a friends edit.

inbetween
Posts: 31
Joined: 28 Mar 2011, 14:06

Re: Desperately Seeking Neo

Post by inbetween »

DSN wrote:
esg wrote:I don't know if I should be laughing or crying
Why not laugh until you cry? :D

Once we got past the first few posts, I wasn't looking for a Neo anymore. I agree, that's far too hard to design. However I felt that there was enough info on sharklets to look into that. PA disagrees, so now that that's clear, there's no problem. It's their Airbus, and ultimately things are their call.

But don't get too comfortable. Come 2012, I'll be back with full schematics and half of the real Airbus team :twisted:
Don't forget it's not just the sharklets that are being added, it is nowhere near as simple as that, this is why Airbus are looking at 2016 for the start of commercial flights. The current testing aircraft that you've linked images too are merely classic A320's with sharklets strapped on. The wingbox will be modified on the production model as the new engines are very different to the current IAE/CFM engines. These engines are right now in testing and no-one knows exactly what they looklike and there are definitely not any concrete images or dimensions or even performance information to go on as opposed to say the A380 which has been flying now commercially for quite a few years. Therefore it's impossible to recreate this aircraft just now with what's available, a full prototype hasn't even been built so it's impossible for a freeware aircraft designer to create accurately without completely guessing at somepoint.

Take this with a pinch of salt but QualityWings are recreating the 787 of which there is many pictures of, not to mention the exact engine dimensions and other nitty gritty is readily available and i reckon they have leads inside Boeing for the avionics side plus add to that they are a payware developer. This is the kind of lifecycle you can expect from a developer, there is no way the NEO can be recreated by anyone to real world Airbus specifications for quite a while.

2012 is likely to be a very speculative year as i seriously doubt we'll see an engined prototype NEO make it's first flight until at least 2013.

DSN
Posts: 18
Joined: 25 Jun 2011, 14:07

Re: Desperately Seeking Neo

Post by DSN »

From about post two I dropped the suggestion of a Neo, and switched it to the A320WL, which is exactly as I've shown it, an A320 with sharklets stuck on. This WILL be an in production aircraft.

Also, the sharklet design is frozen and final. There was a pair of life sized ones at the Paris Salon Le Bourget. So don't say we don't know what those will look like ;)

So, like I said, come 2012, when the sharklets will be installed on a test aircraft, I'll be back.

Hughes-MDflyer4
Posts: 4
Joined: 29 May 2010, 00:22

Re: Desperately Seeking Neo

Post by Hughes-MDflyer4 »

DSN wrote:So, like I said, come 2012, when the sharklets will be installed on a test aircraft, I'll be back.
Stop demanding that PA make what you want. They'll make what THEY want. They are a freeware GROUP...not selling anything. They are using their own time to make their add-ons, give them away for nothing, and get nothing more than a "thank you." I don't want to come off as sounding mean, but seriously. They don't have to make something because one person comes along and asks. ;)

DSN
Posts: 18
Joined: 25 Jun 2011, 14:07

Re: Desperately Seeking Neo

Post by DSN »

I assure you, I'm not demanding anything, I'm only suggesting something. And I'm not suggesting it for personal gain. This is something that other people have requested, and is currently lacking in the FS world. By meeting thisdemands (the economic term, not the theat) it has the potential to introduce many people to the already fantastic PA series, which would be good for both the company and the users. And I'm certainty not the only one to be interested in this model.

PA said they can't model it since they don't have enough information. I hardly think they have some grudge against sharklets. So I don't see it as doing anything wrong or selfish to say that I'll wait for more information to be available, then ask again where the issue stands.

Also I should mention again, keeping in mind that I'm not demanding anything, companies, regardless of whether or not money changes hands, are designed to serve customers. Therefore it is the customers job to WANT something, not to just say thank you to whatever they are given because of the fact that it's free.

esg
Posts: 1591
Joined: 01 Jul 2009, 22:03

Re: Desperately Seeking Neo

Post by esg »

We are not a company.

DSN
Posts: 18
Joined: 25 Jun 2011, 14:07

Re: Desperately Seeking Neo

Post by DSN »

Do you produce a product, for sale or for free distribution? Do you have an organized group of members who develops, creates, and distributes this product? Do you have a licenced name, website, or logo?

You are a company. I think that somebody in your position would realize that regardless of what you are looking for in your aims (money, or simply giving people entertainment), you are governed by generally the same rules as any company, revenue driven or otherwise.

But now we are not talking about the A320. People have expresses interest in the shark lets, but you don't have enough information at the time. I'll ask again when there's more information, and until then I'll enjoy your other models. Why can't people leave it at that? Personally I only keep responding to correct the misassumptions people are making about my request.

esg
Posts: 1591
Joined: 01 Jul 2009, 22:03

Re: Desperately Seeking Neo

Post by esg »

1– I don't give two shits about economics.

2– This would be a question of the governing law; it has nothing to do with economics.

3– In England—and, presumably, other countries where Common Law is practiced—you'd have to be officially registered to be considered a company.

4– We don't have a 'licensed' name, website or logo.

5– We are not here to 'serve' you.


Now this is settled, it's time to go our merry ways.

Locked