A321 engine power

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imageofme
Posts: 10
Joined: 19 Apr 2011, 14:03

A321 engine power

Post by imageofme » 19 Apr 2011, 14:12

Hi pilots! i tried just for a while the new a321 yesterday evening. Great model! I feel it much more underpowerd compared to a320. It slowly take speed and climb at 3000 ft/min and 220-230 ktas under 10000 ft with almost empty load is just a dream. Is the correct behavior of the a321?

Lrusso
Posts: 54
Joined: 20 May 2010, 23:21

Re: A321 engine power

Post by Lrusso » 19 Apr 2011, 16:08

Yeah the A321 is a slug in real life. The size difference is really dramatic.

3000 FPM is quite high try 1700-2400.

Billster8724
Posts: 74
Joined: 09 Dec 2009, 22:40

Re: A321 engine power

Post by Billster8724 » 19 Apr 2011, 16:10

I had some problems as well. The takeoff seems alright (roll distance wise) but climbing to cruise altitude was not fun. I was going to go to FL350, but realized I wouldnt make it. Decided to just go to FL300. Above about 25'000 you cant climb at more than about 200ft/min. Even than you lose airspeed. I was climbing around 160 kts with throttles full forward. Once in cruise the nose would be stuck at about 15 degrees nose up and the airspeed would stay around 180kts (still full power). I increased the thrust a bit on it. You can find that in the aircraft.cfg file. Its currently set to "1.0". I changed it to "1.4" and that seems to work. Id say between 1.3 and 1.4 will do it. That entry is about halfway down the cfg, under contact points I believe. It says "Jet_thrust_scale= 1.0" or something like that IIRC. Still have test the cruise characteristics.

Hope you figured it out.

Bill

MUSTANG
Posts: 46
Joined: 02 Jul 2010, 03:28

Re: A321 engine power

Post by MUSTANG » 19 Apr 2011, 16:30

You described my issues exactly :lol: ;)

Derek Mayer
Posts: 236
Joined: 02 Jul 2009, 16:13

Re: A321 engine power

Post by Derek Mayer » 19 Apr 2011, 16:48

^ Right, well I won't discount the possibility the aircraft is behaving differently on your system, but I just made a few tests on my machine and am pretty certain I understand what's going on.

In short, you're climbing too slowly. At 160kts you're on the EXTREME back end of the A321's power curve. Your pitch is so high that your wings are producing way more drag than lift. In this situation you're pretty much cooked, you'll never be able to simply power yourself back to normal flight. You'd have to descend a good 1000-2000 feet to regain normal airspeed and then continue to climb afterward.

The trick is: Don't let your airspeed get that low. Climb at 250kts to 10,000ft, and then accelerate to 300kts and MAINTAIN that until you reach cruising altitude. Don't just peg a VS and hope for the best. To illustrate: I just made a quick test flight, aircraft fully loaded. At FL250 and 200kts, I could only manage a climb at 400-500fpm. I can only imagine how it must struggle at 160kts. I then descended a bit to let it accelerate back to normal speed. Once I got back to FL250 at 300kts, I was climbing at 1200fpm.

storm66
Posts: 9
Joined: 13 Jun 2010, 19:28

Re: A321 engine power

Post by storm66 » 19 Apr 2011, 18:18

Derek has it pegged. The performance in the FDE is pretty much as I expected from what my friend told me(who is an FO on the 321 & 319). The 321 is a bit underpowered considering it;s size(fairly close to the B757 in size and weights). It is a must to stay within the proper climb profile(for weights and conditions) to avoid hitting the wall up at/near cruise altitude. It can be done but by the numbers!

Billster8724
Posts: 74
Joined: 09 Dec 2009, 22:40

Re: A321 engine power

Post by Billster8724 » 19 Apr 2011, 18:30

Yeah my father told me about that. He flew the A320 family (321 included) for 7 years at ACA. Not his fav. aircraft haha. It should climb around 800ft/min in the upper air. He said exactly what you said, Derek: That speed is unrecoverable once you get that low. I shouldnt have let it. For the climb I had a relatively low vertical speed. Never above 2300ft/min. The aircraft was about 20'000lbs short of MTOW (about 14'000lbs payload and 85% fuel) so that wasnt the issue. I'll try what you mentioned though.

And yeah its the same wing and engine as the A320. So it was pretty obvious from it's rollout way back when, that it would be problematic. For the most part, its not the lack of power that is the problem, it's the lack of wing area- An issue Airbus didnt want to spend the money on. Anywho I'll play around with it. Thanks.

Btw I'm running FS9 on Windows XP. Also, would this perhaps be the solution to my "nose-high" cruise attitude? I try it out till later today. Just curious.

Thanks

Bill

MUSTANG
Posts: 46
Joined: 02 Jul 2010, 03:28

Re: A321 engine power

Post by MUSTANG » 19 Apr 2011, 21:45

Thanks for that info guys....yikes why would anyone wanna fly an A321 for real :lol: :P
I was climbing at the default VS of 1000ft/m and was having stall issues. My next flight I reduced all weight to 50%....now I was able to climb at a more consistent rate :| Guess flying the fsx default 321 spoiled us with its powa :lol:

CHEERS!!

anels9
Posts: 133
Joined: 09 Jul 2010, 22:05

Re: A321 engine power

Post by anels9 » 19 Apr 2011, 22:36

I've gone to the Airbus website and given it the proper power, mtow, oew and fuel. Now it's as realistic as possible. :)

GaryG
Posts: 880
Joined: 19 Jul 2009, 10:32

Re: A321 engine power

Post by GaryG » 19 Apr 2011, 22:38

anels9 wrote:I've gone to the Airbus website and given it the proper power, mtow, oew and fuel. Now it's as realistic as possible. :)
Provided that those values are properly simulated within the sim. ;)

anels9
Posts: 133
Joined: 09 Jul 2010, 22:05

Re: A321 engine power

Post by anels9 » 19 Apr 2011, 23:20

they are

esg
Posts: 1582
Joined: 01 Jul 2009, 22:03

Re: A321 engine power

Post by esg » 19 Apr 2011, 23:31

anels9 wrote:I've gone to the Airbus website and given it the proper power, mtow, oew and fuel. Now it's as realistic as possible. :)
The figures Airbus gives are for public consumption; they vary, in fact, from operator to operator and aircraft to aircraft

anels9
Posts: 133
Joined: 09 Jul 2010, 22:05

Re: A321 engine power

Post by anels9 » 20 Apr 2011, 00:12

yeah i know, but they're the overall facts if ya get me. im just wondering esg, i cant remember if it was the iae or cfm variant, but i noticed in one of them the mtow was like 196k pounds did you get the specs from a carrier or how much the cfm/iae can handle?

Derek Mayer
Posts: 236
Joined: 02 Jul 2009, 16:13

Re: A321 engine power

Post by Derek Mayer » 20 Apr 2011, 01:33

196,210lbs / 89,000kg MTOW is straight from the A321 TCDS. More specifically, from an unmodded A321-211/231.

If you want to use the actual aircraft's certified weights for your edits, you should be looking at the TCDS. There are a few different variants listed: http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guida ... v%2011.pdf

The A321 weights are on page 26.

anels9
Posts: 133
Joined: 09 Jul 2010, 22:05

Re: A321 engine power

Post by anels9 » 20 Apr 2011, 01:42

Derek Mayer wrote:196,210lbs / 89,000kg MTOW is straight from the A321 TCDS. More specifically, from an unmodded A321-211/231.

If you want to use the actual aircraft's certified weights for your edits, you should be looking at the TCDS. There are a few different variants listed: http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guida ... v%2011.pdf

The A321 weights are on page 26.
alrighty, cheers! :)

flightsimer
Posts: 67
Joined: 28 Nov 2009, 15:23

Re: A321 engine power

Post by flightsimer » 20 Apr 2011, 03:14

I just tested it and was going to post the same...

However something isnt right. My takeoff roll was nearly 9000ft while below MTOW

I did notice this though.

When at 50% throttle Setting on my X52, im only getting 40% N1, At 75% throttle, im getting 65% and at 100% only 90%. is 90% N1 really the max it gets? i noticed this on the A319 as well. I mean just to maintain a constant speed for level flight, i shouldnt have to be at 75% throttle..

esg
Posts: 1582
Joined: 01 Jul 2009, 22:03

Re: A321 engine power

Post by esg » 20 Apr 2011, 10:46

My guess is it was rescaled so that it won't go above round about 92% N1. The N1, I believe, is accurate in nearly all stages of flight
i shouldnt have to be at 75% throttle
Does it really matter? You'd be in CLB on the real thing; the thrust levers wouldn't move at all

flightsimer
Posts: 67
Joined: 28 Nov 2009, 15:23

Re: A321 engine power

Post by flightsimer » 20 Apr 2011, 23:04

esg wrote:My guess is it was rescaled so that it won't go above round about 92% N1. The N1, I believe, is accurate in nearly all stages of flight
i shouldnt have to be at 75% throttle
Does it really matter? You'd be in CLB on the real thing; the thrust levers wouldn't move at all
92% is not the max though so why was it rescaled? Am i getting the same power but just not correct engine readings on my panels then?

The CFM-56-5 series of engines that powers the A32x family all max out at 5200 RPM at 104% N1. So i should still have another 14% N1 in my engine readings.
pg 18 http://www.aftd.com/TCDS_PDFS%5CE37NE_10.pdf


This isnt the real one now is it? it is an issue because im not flying with CLB, Im using my joystick like everyone else. If i move the throttles in the real one to 50% power, im not gonna get only 30%... that just doesnt make any sense. The A319 has the biggest issue of this. It takes full throttles on the joystick just to get above 50%N1!There is no way thats realistic. Thats practically flying either no power or full power. Its only the A320 from PA that i have ever experienced this. And because the X52 has a built in stick spot (cant think of any other description), its impossible to control the engines percisely.

Derek Mayer
Posts: 236
Joined: 02 Jul 2009, 16:13

Re: A321 engine power

Post by Derek Mayer » 20 Apr 2011, 23:51

The original FDE designer is no longer active with PA, just so you know. Only he'd be able to fully answer your question. I believe that the power figures are meant to replicate the N1 values that CLB thrust would give. The intent is for you to be able to push your throttles all the way forward on takeoff and leave them there for the entire climb. The FDE then limits the N1% to reflect the max thrust the real thing would allow in CLB. It makes more sense if you think of the 100% position on your throttles as being the CLB gate. Call it a poor man's FADEC.

At 92% you're getting all the power you need. If you're having performance issues, the problem lies elsewhere. The FDE was designed to perform with those N1 values in mind.

That being said, I don't think anyone's ever complained of not being able to control the thrust precisely. The A319 FDE was incomplete and had some issues, the official solution was to replace the A319 .air file with the .air file from our A320 and people have indicated that fixed their problems.

Finally, with respect to cruise N1, it should be around 80-90% depending on many factors.

Billster8724
Posts: 74
Joined: 09 Dec 2009, 22:40

Re: A321 engine power

Post by Billster8724 » 21 Apr 2011, 01:30

Derek Mayer wrote:The A319 FDE was incomplete and had some issues, the official solution was to replace the A319 .air file with the .air file from our A320 and people have indicated that fixed their problems.
Do I just copy/paste the A320's .air file in the A319 and rename it than? I've never had a problem with the A319, but if thats a realism factor than I guess thats a quick fix ;)

Bill

Derek Mayer
Posts: 236
Joined: 02 Jul 2009, 16:13

Re: A321 engine power

Post by Derek Mayer » 21 Apr 2011, 05:26

Yes, rename the A320's .air so that it has the same name as the A319's .air file. Then copy it into the A319 folder and overwrite. You might want to back up the old .air file just in case.

flightsimer
Posts: 67
Joined: 28 Nov 2009, 15:23

Re: A321 engine power

Post by flightsimer » 21 Apr 2011, 09:35

Derek Mayer wrote:The original FDE designer is no longer active with PA, just so you know. Only he'd be able to fully answer your question. I believe that the power figures are meant to replicate the N1 values that CLB thrust would give. The intent is for you to be able to push your throttles all the way forward on takeoff and leave them there for the entire climb. The FDE then limits the N1% to reflect the max thrust the real thing would allow in CLB. It makes more sense if you think of the 100% position on your throttles as being the CLB gate. Call it a poor man's FADEC.

At 92% you're getting all the power you need. If you're having performance issues, the problem lies elsewhere. The FDE was designed to perform with those N1 values in mind.

That being said, I don't think anyone's ever complained of not being able to control the thrust precisely. The A319 FDE was incomplete and had some issues, the official solution was to replace the A319 .air file with the .air file from our A320 and people have indicated that fixed their problems.

Finally, with respect to cruise N1, it should be around 80-90% depending on many factors.
I dont quite understand the reasoning behind that. Why would you want to just push the throttles all the way forward and just leave them there? That was a really lazy feature added in my opinion. It is sort of supid since the plane just doesnt climb and it limits the throttle in all the other phases of flight. its really annoying having to constantly push forward and pull back the throttle just to maintain a speed while on approach.

As to being the max N1 in CLB, sure maybe its that, but its not the max that could be used in takeoff which is where the performance sucks for every single PA A32x, even when light.

Cruise N1 (80-90%), that means that the engines are fire walled the entire trip to have a 80-90% n1 value as 92% is the max it gets at takeoff.

I understand the guy is no longer here and you really dont know what he did, but something still doesnt seem right.

GaryG
Posts: 880
Joined: 19 Jul 2009, 10:32

Re: A321 engine power

Post by GaryG » 21 Apr 2011, 10:01

I fly the A321, A319 and A320 pretty damn good. I wouldn't say that the performance sucks and really think that's an unfair statement from your side.

Vas took well good control of the FADEC, maybe you should try it and then see how they perform.

esg
Posts: 1582
Joined: 01 Jul 2009, 22:03

Re: A321 engine power

Post by esg » 21 Apr 2011, 10:37

flightsimer wrote:I dont quite understand the reasoning behind that. Why would you want to just push the throttles all the way forward and just leave them there? That was a really lazy feature added in my opinion. It is sort of supid since the plane just doesnt climb and it limits the throttle in all the other phases of flight. its really annoying having to constantly push forward and pull back the throttle just to maintain a speed while on approach.

As to being the max N1 in CLB, sure maybe its that, but its not the max that could be used in takeoff which is where the performance sucks for every single PA A32x, even when light.

Cruise N1 (80-90%), that means that the engines are fire walled the entire trip to have a 80-90% n1 value as 92% is the max it gets at takeoff.

I understand the guy is no longer here and you really dont know what he did, but something still doesnt seem right.
What do you want us to do about it?

imageofme
Posts: 10
Joined: 19 Apr 2011, 14:03

Re: A321 engine power

Post by imageofme » 21 Apr 2011, 12:35

Derek Mayer wrote:Yes, rename the A320's .air so that it has the same name as the A319's .air file. Then copy it into the A319 folder and overwrite. You might want to back up the old .air file just in case.
Hi Derek. So, could be a solution to do the same with a321's .air?

esg
Posts: 1582
Joined: 01 Jul 2009, 22:03

Re: A321 engine power

Post by esg » 21 Apr 2011, 12:55

A solution for what? Have you followed Derek's instructions above and gone through the flying guide and still having trouble?

The A321's AIR file is identical to the A320's

Ratinho
Posts: 31
Joined: 21 Apr 2011, 14:17

Re: A321 engine power

Post by Ratinho » 21 Apr 2011, 14:37

Hi simers. First time here.
In my opinion the aircraft is with the right settins.
The big problem is to find the right TOW(take of weight), for the right FL(flight level)
Some help:
With MTOW(max t/o weigth)of 89000kg, the max FL is F330 (33000ft) with max 500/800ft/min approching final level.
With 84000Kg FL350
79000kg FL370
74000kg FL390

For the Climb:
Until FL100 250kt IAS rate of climb 2000/2500 ft/min
After FL100 increse to 300kt IAS until reaching M0.78
Mantain M0.78 until reaching cruising level. Until then decress the rate/climb in order to mantain M0.78

Sorry in advence for any error in my english.

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Tom Collins
Posts: 265
Joined: 11 Aug 2009, 12:09

Re: A321 engine power

Post by Tom Collins » 21 Apr 2011, 14:49

Ratinho wrote:Hi simers. First time here.
In my opinion the aircraft is with the right settins.
The big problem is to find the right TOW(take of weight), for the right FL(flight level)
Some help:
With MTOW(max t/o weigth)of 89000kg, the max FL is F330 (33000ft) with max 500/800ft/min approching final level.
With 84000Kg FL350
79000kg FL370
74000kg FL390

For the Climb:
Until FL100 250kt IAS rate of climb 2000/2500 ft/min
After FL100 increse to 300kt IAS until reaching M0.78
Mantain M0.78 until reaching cruising level. Until then decress the rate/climb in order to mantain M0.78

Sorry in advence for any error in my english.
Great summary Ratinho, thanks.

Derek Mayer
Posts: 236
Joined: 02 Jul 2009, 16:13

Re: A321 engine power

Post by Derek Mayer » 21 Apr 2011, 19:30

Yes, that summary is perfect, ratinho. Thanks!

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